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From your son's congressional district!
John W. McCain, Bush's third term.
by aaraujo on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:55:16 AM PDT
It would have been nice of you to mention John Edwards today. I'm sorry you did not.
"The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08
by TomP on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:56:23 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
"The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg
by grannyhelen on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:59:05 AM PDT
And perhaps wise thing to do given the timing of the diary. It also may have gone a long way in healing some of the divide about which he speaks. But his words are inspiring nonetheless, and hopeful for the future. I hope the excitement he is experiencing will build and that we will be able to put a Dem in the White House in 2009.
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin
by vigilant meerkat on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:46:17 PM PDT
by Texas Ram on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:10:50 PM PDT
I have no idea what you are talking about or whether you mean me or the Senator. Could you clarify?
by vigilant meerkat on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:19:15 PM PDT
I will comment rather than rate. Senator Kennedy is a very distinguished visitor to this site. We should treat him politely and respectfully and not try to hijack his comments thread.
Unite for Obama!
by ohiomeister on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:20:10 PM PDT
It's a candidate diary, whether it's from a senator or a fellow kossack.
That this is from a fellow senator, who at one time had a colleague named John Edwards, the least he could have done was acknowledge him, which in turn would be acknowledging those of us that supported him.
Both Barack and Hillary did.
A ship adrift in a sea of rhetoric & recycled clichés.
by Terre on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:36:01 PM PDT
Senator Kennedy is not following what's happening on Daily Kos on a daily basis. He does not know what a candidate diary is. He does not need to be greeted with "you should have mentioned Sen. Edwards" when he posts here about his endorsement of Sen Obama.
Of course Barack and Hillary mentioned that. That doesn't change that Sen. Kennedy did not need to do so.
by ohiomeister on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 08:04:21 PM PDT
Senator Kennedy doesn't need to be here on a daily basis to acknowledge the fact that an important event happened today, and that for better or worse it will affect Obama's campaign.
Just because I am disappointed in Senator Kennedy's lack of acknowledgement, it is in no way disrespectful of him.
If I can't talk frankly to him here, then where?
by Terre on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 08:20:09 PM PDT
I hope that doesn't mean I can't tell that to Senator Kennedy.
by fulpiction on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 10:25:15 PM PDT
Senator Kennedy isn't typing a diary on DK either. But the staff is doing a good job.
Just sayin...
How do I know?
Been there. Done that.
Tell me how you spend your time and how you spend your money -- I'll tell you what your values are.
by oldpro on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 01:35:36 AM PDT
Yes, it's the least he could have done. John Edwards was the liberal senator you sponsored when he first arrived in the Senate. John Edwards bore the legacy of both your brothers. Barack Obama supported Joe Lieberman and campaigned against Democrat, Ned Lamont in Connecticut to cost the Democrats a crucial vote in the Senate.
I do not understand you or your niece, Senator Kennedy and today, January 31, you feel like a traitor to the cause of democracy in America. You come here only to promote Obama, not because you are a friend of DKos. Some aide must have told you about us, or someone from the Obama campaign.
I'm not impressed with your being here, or your post. I am sorry for your decision and for all of us. Best of luck with your candidate in the general election. Senator McCain thanks you, too.
A Massachusetts Voter
The people who support me are fearless - John Edwards
by Julia02110 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:12:20 AM PDT
tell me senator if obama can reach out to unify and inspire this country ... how come he hasnt been able to convince a majority of democrats that he should be given the nomination? i will put it to you senator in the humblest of manners ... you are wrong. he is not the answer at least not yet.
How dreadful knowledge of the truth can be when there's no help in the truth. Sophocles, Dedipus Rex
by bamabarrron on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:26:21 PM PDT
how about "I disagree with you"?
accidentally recommended your comment instead of hitting "reply to". thats a shame
by spiro125 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:42:24 PM PDT
Just click it again.
McCain's 3AM ad is really a Flomax commercial.
by jhecht on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:24:07 PM PDT
ive been a lurker for a while, still figuring out the mechanics of posting diaries and comments. appreciate helpful comments like this
by spiro125 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:10:44 PM PDT
Is the person complaining that Obama is not yet ahead in national polls? He may well be ahead soon. He's also won more votes from Democrats in states awarding delegates.
by ohiomeister on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:21:50 PM PDT
The comment was in the vein of "say anything, it just might work."
It's a reasonably familiar tactic for those who have followed the campaign, from "he's a Muslim," to "he was a scofflaw and never paid his parking tickets..."
And people wonder why the campaign went negative.
by Carrington Ward on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:17:23 PM PDT
did you call me a racist?
if so, i would certainly love to speak to you about this statement. i do hope you are willing for an open and frank exchange of ideas.
by bamabarrron on Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 11:47:40 AM PDT
That's the news out of the New York Times.
Wanna make a bet on February 5th ???
On the nomination ?
Dixie Chicks, Amy Winehouse, Imus, and Rev. Wright. Overcome our evil with good.
by vets74 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:15:18 AM PDT
Senator Edwards is a liberal lion. He has stood for what is great about the progressive movement. He decided to back a wonderful candidate.
Social progress can be measured by the social position of the female sex
by iowaworker on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:33:25 PM PDT
Care to prove it?
By what standards is Senator Kennedy's (who I admire but do not worship) decision a "bad" one?
Yours?
Who died and made you God?
If your only criterion is that you disagree with it, then you have shown yourself to be an arrogant ass. Senator Kennedy, while he is not your superior, is your equal. He's a free agent. If this is the basis for your comment, then you are setting yourself up as the arbiter of another person's convictions, and that is the height of human arrogance. No matter how good you are, you're not that good.
If you have reasons, beyond personal opinion, that support your position, please provide them publicly.
Or shut up.
--Shannon
"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me
by Leftie Gunner on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:50:05 PM PDT
did i step on your toes ... if so ... i'm sorry but unprepared and unwilling to apologize for my comment. the good senator expressed his opinion and i merely told him that i disagreed with him. was i arrogant ... i think not. did i give a reason, yes i did ... read my first sentence. my reasoning is based on more then personal bias or opinion.
the bottom line leftie is i can disagree with ted on this manner and still hold him in high regard. we are after all, both democrats.
by bamabarrron on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:53:09 PM PDT
and probably alot of other peoples' here, being so disrespectful to a United States Senator and proud champion of progressive values who was nice enough to take the time to communicate directly with the members of this site
by spiro125 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:12:57 PM PDT
Are you complaining that Obama is not yet ahead in national polls? He may well be ahead soon. He's also won more votes from Democrats in states awarding delegates.
by ohiomeister on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:23:27 PM PDT
on what i predict the outcome will be after the 5th. however, he still doesnt have a clear majority of delegates by my count ... but i will concede this point for now ... even though it is 63-48 and far from a majority.
i'm tired of parsing my words in regards to obama. i was open minded when this race began ... obama lost me because of edwards and his actions in oregon. even with john still in the race, i was listening to barak closely ... then he came to oregon for a quick visit to raise some cash. hey, no big deal ... i have worked in politics long enough, i know it is a necessary evil ... i cant fault him for this activity.
what i can fault him for is rather simple ... he was hitting the politics of change real hard as he flew in for two to three hours for a rally ... he declined a meeting with the local democratic party and declined an interivew on the only liberal station in oregon. his attitude and actions rocked me ... was this the "change" he was proposing ... ignoring the base of the party and only speaking to people who could afford a $50.00 ticket. i got so pissed, i gave my ticket away. btw, he left with close to a quarter million dollars.
now if he wins the nomination, i will work a phone bank for him and might even buy a lawn sign or a bumper sticker but i certainly will have reservations. quite simply, obama has alot of proving to do to me ... who know, maybe he will prove me wrong ... i can only hope so.
that is it folks, i'm done with my arrogant screed ... like it or not ... it is how i feel.
by bamabarrron on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:52:41 PM PDT
As I don't really have a dog in this fight, other than simple courtesy in argument.
But there is a huge difference between
"you made a bad decision"
and
"I don't agree with your decision."
One is a statement of opinion, which I would not presume to call you out on. Your opinions are yours, and nobody's arguing otherwise. And if they did, I'd get pissy with them, too.
What you posted was, as read, a statement of fact. Assertions of fact need to have supporting data, or they are worthless.
It's not you... I don't know you from Adam. But the questions remain...
Bad for whom?
By what standard?
Who decides?
The way I read your statement, the first question is unanswered, the answer to the second is "mine", and the answer to the third is "me."
And that is, to me, just as arrogant as those here who assume that anyone who didn't vote for their chosen candidate is a weak-minded, media-influenced tool. Which, to be clear, I'm not implying that you said.
If that's not how you meant it to read, then perhaps it was poorly written.
by Leftie Gunner on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:51:36 PM PDT
this. Perhaps you were trying to reach out to all the Edwards supporters as they are most likely here today, but then you should have spoken about Edwards, at least acknowledged that he was dropping out, especially since his campaign has been focused on ending poverty.
I was disappointed that you didn't endorse Edwards, and now I am disappointed that you could be so insensitive today.
by Lura on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:50:26 PM PDT
and you want him to address yesterday's news. What part of this diary didn't you get?
by jhecht on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM PDT
...as Obama. "Yesterday's news"? Hardly. He didn't officially drop out until this afternoon! The part of this diary I didn't get is how presumptuous, pompous, and insensitive Obama supporters apparently are.
Don't take our support for granted bucko. I'll use my acidic, razor-sharp tongue just as quickly on him as I have used it on Bush, IF I feel a coronation in the making.
One "His Majesty the King" under 8 years of this despotic Bush regime is more than quite enough for one lifetime. I won't suffer another one, regardless of party.
The true test of character is how benevolent the victor is, and how quickly they seek to heal the wounds that divided us, not in how deep they can rub our noses into the bitter ashes of defeat.
Remember, don't burn your bridges behind you, because you never know when you may have to cross them again, and it is not a given that Edwards supporters are going to automatically support our nominee. A wise and gracious Obama would note this reality of life. And like my dear departed mother always said, "Keep your words soft--you never know when you might have to eat them"!
"Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan
by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:03:23 PM PDT
for something who's time has passed.
by jhecht on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:53:42 PM PDT
...he graciously took himself off the front lines, putting our party and America above himself at all times. If this is the thanks we get, then I assure you it's going to be a long, hot summer here on Dkos and in the GE. I for one will never forgive or forget how woefully disrespectfully, almost contemptuously, we were treated by the victors.
It may indeed prove to be a pyrrhic victory for you, seeing how many here today in this thread and in others, who are more than content to turn that spear Edwards carried upon us. Just don't twist it too many times! You may need us to come to your rescue before the repubs get through with you!
by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:11:04 PM PDT
you're obsessed. Look at all the people who are busting the Senator's chops because an endorsement for Obama didn't contain an endorsement for Edwards. Edwards didn't die. He fought the good fight, and realized he wasn't going to win. That doesn't mean Senator Kennedy needs to treat it like a day of mourning. If anything, you're the ones showing a lack of respect by attacking the Senator. If you think Edwards supporters have treated Obama supporters any better than we've treated you, you are seriously fooling yourself.
by jhecht on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 07:26:17 PM PDT
...or "busted his chops" even once in my whole life, even defending him after Chappaquiddick. I even supported him in 1976 when he ran against Jimmy Carter for the Dem nomination!
I loved JFK, and got my start in the Democratic party as a member of the Young Democrats supporting Bobby Kennedy until the day he was taken away from us.
I watched Teddy last year give the most blistering rebuttal I've ever seen on the floor of the U.S. Senate, witnessing him masterfully chastizing the repubs for not letting the FMW bill come to a full Senate floor vote, a speech which left me in tears!
I respectfully disagree with Senator Teddy Kennedy for endorsing Obama over Edwards, because I believe that it is Edwards that should carry the mantle of the Kennedys, not Obama. Of course, I must defer to his infinitely wiser judgement, but it is my honest opinion nevertheless.
It is possible for even the best of friends--or family to disagree without rancor or vitriol. I would NEVER disrespect the Senator in any way, just because I disagree with him on this one single point. I will always love, revere, and respect him in any case.
by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 10:16:22 PM PDT
that John Edwards left the race because he realized he was not going to win, and that by leaving now he could at least help the next most progressive candidate running, while helping bar the door to the former College Republicans president who voted for both the IWR and for Kyl-Lieberman.
Edwards is not the kind of man who needs to have his ego stroked in Senator Kennedy's speech -- he chose this time for a reason to endorse Senator Obama. Senator Kennedy knows this -- and his message is timed to have maximum impact on February 5th.
McKinney/Clemente 2008: Parties that sell out the Constitution don't get my support or my vote.
by simca on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 10:43:20 PM PDT
Let's not get all attack and defend on one another. The entire thread is regarding an incredibly positive feeling going on with young people, Independents, Progressives, and people who haven't felt like politics addressed them ... they feel something strong about an Obama Presidency and about his leadership. Let's not squabble, but enjoy this whole ride. The Edwards family has been gracious and classy the whole way through and I know they will continue to work for a better, fairer country. Good luck to John, godspeed Barack, and even a bearhug for Hil and Bill!
"In the field of world policy, I would dedicate this nation to the policy of the good neighbor - " - FDR.
by wonky on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:09:43 AM PDT
yesterday's "NEWS" or any days news, we would not be having this conversation. Way to narow the field, folks...
So, the status quo or the status quo's pick? Kingmaking at its finest.
If we want peace, why do we give weapons and call it "aid"?
by gdwtch52 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:55:49 AM PDT
"A man of quality is not threatened by a woman of equality."
by flowrider on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:29:20 PM PDT
and I do not find Senator Kennedy to be insensitive. I want to thank Kennedy for his years of service to his country. We owe this man a debt of thanks for all he has done to further progressive causes in the Senate. He has made public service his life's work and he inspires me like his brothers did.
The one thing we know about the McCain campaign...is that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama
by wishingwell on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:49:05 PM PDT
totally agree with you. This was a nice diary. Instead of spewing vitriol at someone who has made a difference and has tried to keep the flame burning through the long dark night, let's think about how to continue JRE's message about poverty and the two America's.
This isn't the Superbowl. It's a dialogue. Let the Senator speak.
"Big boss man..you ain't so big, just tall, that's all." And McCain is the boss!
by TheFatLadySings on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 06:43:19 PM PDT
We're glad.
by Bluesman48 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:43:48 PM PDT
I mean I just got off of work, AND I am glad to see him post EVEN though I was at work!
The man said what he said because he thinks and believes what he said!
I delayed at work discussing this issue and the last thing we stated is that Edwards had previously stated he was in it till for Super Tuesady!
Why not respect Edwards decision to do it now???
I'm personally VERY SAD Edwards has dropped out!
I felt GREAT knowing that Edwards was still in there fighting, and now I feel at a loss and very scared because he dropped out!
Senator Kennedy's so kind reminder of what the Democratic Party has traditionally stood for--IDEALS that moved the Party foward based in the youth of the country and NOT personalites based in the muck and mire of the past is just what I needed to hear right now.
To Senator Edwards--I love and respect your decision today--although it's made me very sad.
I know you won't 'delete' us and will stay with the HEART of the Democratic Party!
"People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"
by Wary on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:01:27 PM PDT
day.
by Yoshimi on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:59:14 AM PDT
by America08 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:26:03 PM PDT
Uggghhhh.
I understand you are pissed and depressed. Try to take a break.
by Yoshimi on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:27:58 PM PDT
If you really knew what you think you knew then you should be the one to be considerate and back off rather than trying to smear salt in a wound you already acknowledge may exist..
But, you do not, for over 40 years I have voted for the democratic candidate, pissed and depressed no I am not, I am more determinded than ever to have my voice heard and you will not silence it.
Obama and Clinton are the ones who were the midline candidates, Edwards was the one with no fear of coporatist to speak out for suffering and lowly americans.
So, guess what - I will still be here, and I will still speak up, and guess what else, I will most likely vote for Clinton - is't a woman thing.
by America08 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:45:00 PM PDT
"I have very strong feelings about how you lead your life. You always look ahead, you never look back." ~ Ann Richards (Governor of Texas, 1990-94)
by suswa on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:07:42 PM PDT
you should be the one to be considerate and back off rather than trying to smear salt in a wound you already acknowledge may exist..
Do as you say and not as you do, is that it?
"I wouldn't trade one stupid decision / for another five years of life." -- LCD Soundsystem
by tomjones on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:12:52 PM PDT
nobler than thou!
Show off or take a flying hike which ever suits your taste.
by America08 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:05:16 PM PDT
who practiced what he preaches.
And tomorrow too! Uggghhhh. I understand you are pissed and depressed. Try to take a break.
And tomorrow too! Uggghhhh.
Do as you say and not as you do,
...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean
by dkmich on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:48:22 PM PDT
for all the candidates.
by tomjones on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:51:02 PM PDT
The only one preaching unity and kumbaya is Obama. If you guys love the message, practice what you preach.
by dkmich on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:04:16 AM PDT
by valsagem on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:27:26 PM PDT
I'm an Edwards supporter too, but honestly, you sound a bit like Marcia Pappas of the NY NOW.
Senator Kennedy has shown nothing but grace. Try some yourself.
by SuburbanGrrrl on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:42:59 PM PDT
I know you're all in grief, but Senator Kennedy's endorsement of Obama and his message today are not about John Edwards or his supporters in any way, shape or form.
It's one thing to take politics personally when statements are directed towards you. But when you take it personally when it's not even about you, jeez...
Business is business, and Business must grow, Regardless of Crummies in Tummies, you know.
by punkdavid on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:52:11 PM PDT
No one said he didn't have grace!
by America08 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:06:46 PM PDT
when you gave your endorsement: http://www.dailykos.com/...
Quite the experience. Again Thanks!
by rapcetera on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:15:59 PM PDT
to support whoever you want, fight for what you believe in, etc. You'll get no argument from me.
But the people taking out their disappointment today on Senator Kennedy in this diary is totally uncalled for and immature. I feel embarrassed of this place.
What's your foodprint? Take a bite out of climate change.
by hannahlk on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:47:00 PM PDT
I am a woman who has been active in women's advocacy who will not vote for Obama. It is a " change" thing for me. I see Edwards and Obama more alike on that front as well as fighting to change Washington and both being anti lobby.
I see Clintons as going backwards instead of forward into a new frontier.
by wishingwell on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:51:21 PM PDT
I am a woman who has been active in women's advocacy who will not vote for Obama.
OK so you will not vote for Obama but you also see the Clintons as "going backwards." Are you saying you won't vote for either one?
"They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality...and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."
by Sagebrush Bob on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 05:49:04 PM PDT
am voting for Obama for sure and with much enthusiasm.
by wishingwell on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:34:34 AM PDT
:)
by Sagebrush Bob on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:07:26 AM PDT
woman. I am one, and do not like Hillary much.
Hands off my Social Security, John McCain.
by emmasnacker on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 03:59:05 PM PDT
You have been told time and time again by those that support you to shut the fuck up and still you cannot get a clue.
Damn, man. Do you not have feelings?
Another day, another devalued Dollar. -6.00, -6.21
by funluvn1 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:01:03 PM PDT
by bigforkgirl on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:16:19 PM PDT
Kennedy should have recognized Edwards, and you don't need to get your shorts in a knot.
by dkmich on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 02:45:08 PM PDT
that this was written after the Edwards announcement. Given the way these things work, it's likely that it was prepared well before that.
by Audio Guy on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:59:31 PM PDT
?
by iowaworker on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 04:34:32 PM PDT
by Jeff Y on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:00:25 PM PDT
Falco's "Rock Me Amadeus" from the '80s, is just around the corner, I can feel it...
(Is Dood Abides good with audio as well as pictures? Anyone else? Might help Obama pick up the critical Falco endorsement, not yet bestowed as far as I know.)
by Hippokleides on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:49:22 PM PDT
Falco died in 1998 but I always liked Der Kommissar.
by CenFlaDem on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:02:54 PM PDT
huh? Well I just saw them together the other day in the supermarket, but you can go ahead and believe what the MSM tells you... ;)
by Hippokleides on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:14:38 PM PDT
As if. EVERYONE knows Jim Morrison is still alive and running a successful hot dog stand in Boca Raton.
by simca on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 10:47:58 PM PDT
They're all together on some Caribbean island, to be sure.
"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
by Donna in Rome on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:17:24 AM PDT
Thank you Senator Kennedy. Thank you Caroline Kennedy. I remember.
by Annalize5 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 01:19:14 PM PDT
I did not expect to find these tears in my eyes.
It is the folly of youth to think they can change the world; it is the folly of old age not to try. -- Winston Churchill
by penguins4peace on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:45:53 PM PDT
He's endorsing the birth of a new generation of progressives.
Edwards has no doubt played a large role in that. I can tell you that, personally, I supported Edwards in 2004 and that race had a lot to do with the formation of my political character).
But to chide the Senator, even gently, for failing to mention your preferred candidate while he campaigns for a rival shows petulance. This diary is not about John Edwards. It's really not even about Obama:
On Monday, I told Barack Obama he can rely on me. But the hope and promise of our nation relies on all of us.
It's about all of us.
Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower
by Pegasus on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:07:06 PM PDT
Pretty Bird Woman House has a new house!
by betson08 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:11:02 PM PDT
by aaraujo on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 12:14:20 PM PDT
